The Long-Term Consequences of Housing Disrepair with Kwajo Tweneboa

CEL Solicitors owner and founder Jessica Hampson sits down with housing disrepair advocate and campaigner, Kwajo Tweneboa.

23-year-old Kwajo has quickly transitioned from a regular student living in South London to become one of the UK's highest profile housing advocates, garnering attention across the political and business spectrum including from the likes of Michael Gove (ex-Housing and Planning Secretary) and Steven Bartlett (Entrepreneur and Dragons Den).

You can find Kwajo on:

Twitter - https://twitter.com/KwajoHousing

Instagram - www.instagram.com/kwajohousing

TikTok - www.tiktok.com/@kwajohousing

Transcript

Interviewer: Thank you for coming. It is absolutely our pleasure to have you. It's our first podcast, as we've just been talking about. I think you're such an important voice and it's amazing to see an advocate so passionate about housing disrepair. So just to kick off, like, I've got a long list here, right, of, like, you're so famous now. I just want to say, like, before we go into this, that I said to you, I did get on you before you were verified, so I just want to put it out there that I have been a fan, like an OG fan. Okay. For a while, you would have seen.

Kwajo: All my beginning stuff, my wild tweets.

Interviewer: It's actually been wonderful to be part of that journey, and we'll definitely go into that. So in this year alone, you've won awards, you've become verified on Twitter, you've been on every major tv station. There was a time where you were, like, I was switching channels, you were on the other channel. Stephen Bartlett, who's my favorite from Dragons Den, he's donated ten k to you, and you're now regarded as one of the biggest activists in the UK. So, you know, how old are you again? Wow. Yeah, wow. So how are you finding all of this, like, at 23? Like, what's been the act on you and everybody else's sort of lives?

Kwajo: I mean, it's been crazy. I think the last. Yeah, when I started, I was 22 thing, but essentially I've been living with disrepair since I was, well, 2018, since I was in 6th form. So I've had that experience for four years. But in terms of the attention towards the campaign and it really taking off, honestly, I wanted it to get to where it's at. I didn't think. I thought it would take absolute years. I didn't think it would happen as quick as it did. And it's intense. There is times where it's very overwhelming.

But I think for me, what the best part is going into a home where someone, or listening to someone who's complaining about their living conditions, who's just been ignored and not received the help that they should have got and had their repairs sorted years before, and being able to go in there, help them and essentially get what it is that they deserve as not just as housing tenants, but as human beings and a certain level of respect that I think everyone deserves. So that's what really keeps me going and is why I started. And I've said from the very beginning, I went in it with no expectation. I didn't want anything out of it. I was doing it because of the principle that there is right and wrong and the way people are being forced to live is just indefensible.

You cannot justify why people are being allowed to live with sewers running around their walls and damp mold and collapsing ceiling. So it's been, it's. That's why I do. But it's been a crazy, crazy year. And yeah, there's a lot of responsibility, but I hope it motivates other people to, whether it be in housing or others, for other social issues, to speak out and think of more than just yourself.

Interviewer: Because yes, I think it's a community thing now, isn't it? You've done this so selflessly. I know that you started with your own story, which we'll get to, but as you picked up on, your motivation is helping other people.

Kwajo: Yeah, because I don't think anyone should really go through what I went through or my family went through or similar situations. I just think it's completely wrong. As human beings, we know the difference between right and wrong. We should all have morals. The problem is, what I've learned is there's individuals out there that have put their job, their own interests, their own selfish needs ahead of them. Exactly. Money ahead of basic respect and time morals. And I think it's completely wrong. And we need less of just caring about ourselves and prioritizing ourselves and thinking about the bigger picture and thinking about other people that don't necessarily have a voice or a platform or the power. And that's hopefully what I do with my platform and what it's been built on.

And I started from the very beginning, like you said, you followed me from the very beginning. So it started with absolutely no one. But I stayed persistent with it. I knew what it was that needed to happen. I was very passionate and driven and determined to prove a point and get it to where it needed to be. And it's still a long way to go. There's still a long journey in regards to housing. It's not fixed. It's far from fixed. It's going to take. It's not something that's going to be fixed overnight. I'm very determined to stick with it. And I hope others do come on board in their own shape and form, whether they turn into campaigners or just tenants feeling like they can speak up and then obviously change, that government level needs to happen for real change to happen.

They're the ones with power. They're the ones that should have been dealt with. They're the ones to blame for the current situation that we're in. And the change needs to ultimately come from them and that will then feed through down to us tenants and the people that need it for generations to come, not just now.

Interviewer: Yeah. And you just mentioned then where the change needs to come from. So you have met a lot of people in government, you have met a lot of MP's, you have met, you know, maybe heads of housing or heads of the council, people that can make a real change. Do you feel like change is happening or is it potentially superficial, but they're just trying to do a PR job? How do you feel?

Kwajo: I think now it's starting to change, especially with everything that's happened over the last year. It's gone from, oh, it can be just a PR statement of us saying, oh, we prioritise our tenants and whatnot, to them actually waking up and thinking if we don't. And if we say we're looking after our tenants and then this individual comes along or these other campaigners or these other groups come in shameless and disgrace us for not doing what and living up to what it is that we tell others that we do, then we're in trouble. So it's gone from them doing it for PR. I still have no doubt that everything revolves around pr. No business wants bad pressure. But I do think you've shone a lot, haven't you? And they cannot look away from it. Yeah. The problem's there and it's. And it's.

And it's systematic. And I think that was what the goal in the beginning was. It's about how they react now, but it's about them also knowing that if they don't react in the correct way, then they ultimately will be held accountable for it.

Interviewer: Just picking up as well about what you were saying before. You used this phrase twice about people being human beings. The not statistics. I think what's been wonderful about you, genuinely, is that you've shone a light on people's real circumstances. You've allowed us to go into that home and have a look. A lot of your twitter is visual. A lot of the things that you're doing on tv is visual. Obviously, this is a podcast, so we can't see those images, but sometimes a picture speaks a thousand words. So what is the message there? Do you feel that you are shining them light? And people do need that education about people, circumstances? And can you share with us some of the horror stories? Because I think some people, if they've never gone through it, themselves. They've never looked at those pictures.

They've never walked a mile in those people's shoes. It's so easy to write it off as this is a little bit of damp, this is a little bit of mold. But as we discussed outside of this podcast, there's some heavy things going on. You know, people are, they have huge consequences. Can you just share with our listeners a little bit about some of the more extreme cases just to hit home to anyone who's not familiar with the subject or feels a bit removed?

Kwajo: Yeah, I mean, on the first bit, I mean, my posts, and I purposely do my posts in the way that I have from the very beginning because people clearly have a connection to it and it works. And my posts aren't there to make anyone feel comfortable. They're perfectly there to show the raw end of things, the reality to what is happening in regards to housing, and also to show the extent to what happens when you don't do your job correctly and you don't prioritize the people in this case, this public sector being tenants. And it goes completely wrong. And that's highlighted in my video.

It's all good and well, like I say, sane as an issue, but showing them in 4k, just how it is that someone's living and how long they've been living for in those sorts of situations really brings it home, I think just how bad things have gotten in regards to some of the worst cases. I mean, it's crazy because now I have to really think about which one's the worst because they're also terrible.

Interviewer: They're all so bad.

Kwajo: Yeah, also bad. I've had people with sewage running down their walls, people's homes flooded with raw sewage, mice, cockroach infestations, damp mould.

Interviewer: What have been the cases? Because we discussed ourselves, because obviously we're the solicitors, and I know we've talked about how solicitors can be seen, certainly by the public in a certain, like usually fat cats, money grabbers or whatever. And I was shared with you that I remember my first case that I took on, the one that kept me up at night, and I was pregnant myself, and this lady was also pregnant, but a couple of months ahead of me. And her baby was born with respiratory problems because of the thick mold that was in the house. And her baby would always grow up with breathing problems. And that it just absolutely floored me, like if it was real anyway, it was just so much more real.

So there must have been a few cases where actually, I know that you only deal with the most extreme. But was there any in particular of recent, even where you just struggled to, like, get it off your mind, maybe.

Kwajo: I mean, there's been, again, loads, especially when it comes to people's physical and mental health. I'm thinking kids are often, in a lot of these cases, the victims. They're the overlooked victims in this, a lot of health issues. So, for example, I was speaking to a woman who a few years ago had a miscarriage as a result of an infestation of mice, and she had caught an infection which preempted labor. She had a miscarriage and that child unfortunately didn't survive. It was a few months before she was due to give birth. And she was telling me how she found mice in her washing machine. She found them around the house. It was just infested, just completely infested.

Interviewer: And it's dangerous. So we're getting to the point where what I want to hit home really is that this is dangerous. People are dying. There are huge consequences of this because I think sometimes because of the sector of people that this affects. People don't care about this sector. And people should.

Kwajo: Yeah, I mean, I see it as three pillars, and I think absolutely everyone in this country should in terms of our national health service, education and also housing. I think the three most important things that people across the country depend on. Unfortunately, housing isn't treated to the same standard. I think. I mean, you think of schools and you think of hospitals. When you go to work in education or you go to work in a hospital, if you're holding those senior positions, you have to go and train for years, whether that be even to go to university in order to get those qualifications and really understand what it is that you're working with. Fortunately for housing, you don't. You don't necessarily need that. You can just go in there and do it. So it's even in that sense.

But also in regards to funding and lack of funding and the lack of regulation, too, when it comes to people living in poor housing, there's nothing there. There's no deterrence there for housing providers to stop exploiting their tenants or abusing their tenants or neglecting their tenants. And I know they sound like harsh words, but they're the reality. Because if we're being real now and a parent was doing those sorts of things and allowing their kid and forcing their kid to live in those.

Interviewer: I've never thought about it like that. But, yeah, social services on the phone.

Straight away, ready to take your child out of that situation. So why is it just because it's a public sector, just because it's local authority, just because it's housing association? That's not the case. Why are they allowed to continue doing that to tenants? That's my problem. And it's a whole power thing that is just broken. And the thing is, I have to make it clear that this isn't something that's just been going on for a year of me highlighting on social media. There's been other campaigns, there's been other campaigners, there's been other groups out there. There still are these groups out there.

Interviewer: And still the change is forthcoming because we saw a little bit of change after Grenfell. But again, the law, as a lawyer, the law just did not go far enough. And again, we need to think about everything sort of holistically. So it's amazing that you're campaigning, but if I'm going to bring it back to the law, as I've said to you previously outside of this podcast, sometimes our hands are tied by the law and we can only do so much. We really need, as you were saying, with government, we need to see that change. We need to see people supported by the court, by law, so that the legal rights are there, so they can be followed. You know, at the moment, it's a disgrace, really, that we have to have campaigners or charities to bring these issues to a forefront.

Kwajo: It's true. It's absolutely true. And I think there's definitely individuals there that are paid to do the jobs that I'm doing, other campaigners are doing. And also in regards to the laws, there barely are any that protect tenants. There barely are any there that protect tenants.

Interviewer: What I found is even when they're there, they don't go far enough. So it's like how were talking where, okay, you can win, you can have a housing disrepair claim with a solicitor. You can win. You can give the tenant compensation, which, by the way, let's be clear, these tenants are not bothered about compensation. They're really not. First and foremost, they want their repairs doing, and that's where the law lets them down. So, yes, okay, the council will pay them the compensation, but then they don't go in and they don't do the repairs. And that's where we have to sue again and again. We have cases where we've had to sue them six times. Why is this happening? It's because the law just isn't strong enough on this case.

And I'm grateful to yourself for sort of shining a light so that we can get things done. But I really thought that we would be more along. And we're not.

Kwajo: No, definitely not. And like you said, the law doesn't go far enough at all. And it's entirely true what you say in regards to tenants. They want the work done first and foremost. But if it is a thing where we're going back to compensation and we're talking about the money in which tenants get as sort of in response to them living in disrepair and dire situations, when they do get solicitor in or they go to the ombudsman and you look at that figure, let's say on average, we're going to use an example, they get 1000 pounds compensation a tenant that tenants been living in disrepair for two years. Let's say they've been living in disrepair for two years, they've got 1000 pounds compensation for the situation they've been living in.

500 pounds worth of their belongings has been destroyed as a result of the disrepair.

Interviewer: And sometimes it'll be really sentimental things that is destroyed. And also the law does not take into account emotional distress as well. And that's where I find it really difficult when we speak to our clients is certainly as people ourselves, we can totally emphasize, have empathy, sorry, with the clients, but there's nothing that we can do legally, and it's wrong. Because in other areas of law you will get money for that. And it doesn't take that into account at all. And how they've been mistreated and not listened to as well. You know, some of your cases that are so extreme you can't put money value on that. They're never going to get that back.

Kwajo: It never goes far enough. Even with everything that you mentioned. What the bit that I'm trying to change, and I think it's absolutely disgraceful, is even if, for example, they gave 1000 pounds compensation of 500 pounds of that they had to use to buy back their belongings, that's still not taken into consideration that individual has been paying full rent every month for that two years that they've been living in disrepair even if the property was unfit for living. So when we calculate that as opposed to the 1000 pounds that they get back, it means absolutely nothing. If anything, they're still at a loss because they've been having to hand over that money for a service they haven't been receiving for two years. And it makes no sense whatsoever.

Cause if that was any other sector, if that was any other good or service that someone was receiving, you wouldn't have to pay the money for the service that you. You wouldn't pay money for a service you're not receiving under any circumstances.

Interviewer: Exactly. Now, I have my own thoughts on this, but I would like to know why do you think that is the reason compared to other sectors?

Kwajo: Well, I think in regards to housing. So tenants still have to pay rent? Well, in the sense tenants know they have to still pay rent because if they don't, they're going to be kicked out of the house. And that's used by the housing provider in order to get that money. And that's why there's a lack of response when it comes to deal with them having to deal with repairs, because there's no incentive there for them to do it in a decent amount of time. Whereas you start paying rent and you don't pay two years of rent. They will know about that. They will know straight away. But also I don't think it's seen as a priority. And obviously.

Interviewer: I think it's the demographic as well, because I think the demographic is a demographic where they just don't have a voice and no one cares about them and they just don't matter. Obviously we know that they do matter and obviously it's amazing that you are giving them a voice, but I think that certain authorities take advantage of that as well, is what I've seen. I think it's quite political.

Kwajo: Yeah, they are looked down upon and they look down upon by the people that are meant to be riding with homes too. Yeah, you just listen to the way in which tenants are spoken to on the phone when they call up to maker in a way in which they're disrespected. You can hear it gaslit a lot as well.

Interviewer: You know, they're going through the most horrendous time, especially COVID must have exacerbated any sort of disrepair that they're living with and they're just not listened to, they're lied to, they're ignored. You know, it has what I found with, I'd say 99% of our clients, that how they're treated once they do complaints actually has a direct impact on their mental health and contributes detrimentally.

Going back to what you said earlier, I'm glad we agree on the same point. And coming from a campaigner and also a lawyer, we've agreed on the same point because sometimes when I say it, people might think, oh, he's over exaggerating or whatnot. He's being dramatic. But people are dying in their homes. I've seen evidence of it.

Interviewer: So, I mean, were talking, so originally were talking, and obviously I'm from a council with state background myself, so before I got into this, which was around five years ago now, I thought, okay, it's definitely a cause that I want to get behind, but I'm quite prepared for the houses that I'm going to see because that's going to be the houses where I grew up. And I was shocked. I was blown out of the water. There isn't some of these houses I wouldn't spend an hour in, let alone live in, bring up my children, have disabilities in, have my mother in there. So it's an absolute disgrace. It's an absolute eye opener.

And I think that's where you've come in and really started to educate us with, if you tell us a little bit about maybe the Channel Four program that you're going to do, just really starting to shine a light. Because even myself who've come from that demographic, I was still shocked at the standards and what's going on in it. And what we found discussing is actually this problems getting worse. It's not getting better every year we're seeing decline.

Kwajo: It is. And again, that's you as a lawyer saying that you get thousands, I'm sure, of people contacting you just like I do of tenants who are desperate for help because they're not getting it anywhere else. And you see that it's getting progressively worse. And I think especially over the last few years, and I know over the last decade, it would, especially with lockdown that would have made people having to stay in these situations day in, day out and be in these sorts of environments. And when I make my posts and I share them, I want people to remember that. Yeah, a few years ago, a few months ago, people were told they had to stay in, day out, whether it be mice, cockroaches, damp mold.

Interviewer: And things get worse. So were talking about cracks in the ceiling. Okay, that's okay, fast forward two years. Those ceilings are collapsing on people. We're talking about. Okay, this locks a little bit loose. Fast forward this lock on a high rise children, and there's been several children are falling out of these windows to the death because no one's listening and no one's coming out to do anything about it. So everything's just getting exacerbated, isn't it?

Kwajo: Yeah, it's true, but. And we see that happening and that decline happening, but the people with the power, whether that be the CEO's or the directors, all of these housing providers or the government, don't see it as that, or don't see it enough as an emergency. Enough of an emergency to have to deal with it in the short term. Not being funny, five years after Grenfell, that should have been enough of an emergency to deal with it. It shouldn't be happening. We shouldn't be seeing the levels that we are.

Kwajo: I can't see them at all. I say, I use that all the time. They love to use that one line, especially when I go in there, come out, disgrace them. Lessons have been learned. A few weeks later I go back to another one of their properties or a few months later find that tenants complain of the same sort of issues being ignored, the same basic fundamental issues which shouldn't be happening. And they say lessons have been learned again, but they haven't. It's all PR. It's all PR and it's a disgrace because lessons should have been learnt five years ago.

Interviewer: Exactly. And I think what's great about having you on, you talked about this a little bit. You are shining the light, you are humanizing these stories. And probably the best story, if we start, is actually your own, because this is how this is all your campaigning has stem from your own experiences with Clarion and also with everything that you were going through with your own father. So could you tell our listeners a little bit about that and how this all came about?

Kwajo: So it started with me living. So majority of my life I've lived in social housing, grew up in social housing, temporary accommodation to temporary accommodation, and then we got our permanent accommodation, carrying property.

Interviewer: And how did that make you feel when you first heard the news that you've got permanent? Were you good?

Kwajo: I mean, it just felt like stability. Finally you were getting stability. So we thought. Then it turns out that wasn't stability and it was just another living nightmare, because even moving into there was completely falling apart. But what you do when you've been in temporary accommodation for five years, you take what it is that you're given because you don't know when next you're going to be offered somewhere else. So that's exactly what happened. It was falling apart. Mice, cockroaches, they're stupid.

Kwajo: And that's why they tend to just take weight, is that they're given, even if it is handed to them, in disrepair and falling apart. And in that case, it was and didn't have a bathroom, really. Lights were filled with water, kitchen was nearly. The units were nearly 100 years old, infested with wood, lights. There was flies, security risks to the house. The back doors were broken, fences were falling apart and rotten. You name it. What you think could have gone wrong was going wrong in that house. And then my dad, unfortunately got ill. He was diagnosed with cancer, early stages of cancer that progressed quite rapidly in the space of a year to terminal, and he was receiving medical treatment in those sorts of environments.

Interviewer: So did that restrict how much he could go outside of the house?

Kwajo: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, he was in. He had to stay home. I mean, he couldn't physically in that environment. He was just. Yeah, he had to stay there in that environment. He couldn't go out and about, he couldn't walk. He couldn't even walk out of the room or to the sofa, so he just stayed. He had to stay in the bed. And he was being fed, because with the cancer that he had, he stopped. He couldn't eat. He couldn't physically eat or drink, so he'd be fed through his stomach for a chew and his weight just completely dropped off. He was weak and that was being changed three times a day and he just deteriorated.

Interviewer: I would take that you have to have quite a sterile environment then to do that.

Kwajo: You're meant to. You are meant to cause. I mean, it is. With achieving his stomach, it can come out. And he did get an infection in it.

And he was in that sort of environment. No doubt in my mind whatsoever that infection was caused by the conditions were living in. No one can tell me otherwise. And he ultimately got really sick in those conditions. Those cockroaches was mice, like I mentioned earlier on. And in 2020, he passed away from the cancer. But I think the worst part was the fact that when you think about it, when someone knows that they're dying from a terminal illness, that all they want to focus on, I think, would be their health, being with their family and whatnot. And just that on top of that.

Interviewer: That was taken away, wasn't it?

Kwajo: Yeah.

Interviewer: Because wrongfully.

Kwajo: Yeah.

Interviewer: Forced to, on top of that, live in those sorts of conditions. Absolutely. Beyond immoral and disgraceful and disgusting. I'm still very angry at the fact that happened.

Kwajo: Yeah.

And I don't think I will get over that anytime soon.

Interviewer: And is 1000 pounds going to change that?

Kwajo: That's exactly. Is a thousand. Is 10,000 pounds going to change that? Absolutely. Absolutely not. But what I did get back from the housing provider was even after all of this has happened, we're sorry. Quajo feels as though he hasn't received the service we deserve.

Interviewer: Oh, wow.

Kwajo: That's what I.

Interviewer: So you didn't even get a direct apology?

Kwajo: No, it was absolutely pathetic. So that's when I decided, I'm going to go and disgrace them, which is what I did. And I went around every single home in my estate living. People were living in worse conditions than I was and it was taken put on ITV national news and they were disgraced from that point on. And then since then, I went around multiple because they own the housing stock in my borough, went to other estates 510 minutes down the road. Exactly the same, did the exact same. And then I started having tenants contact me via social media from other housing providers, saying it's exactly the same. Local authorities in London then that spread to nationally and around the country and that's what I've been doing ever since.

Interviewer: That's an amazing story. Thank you for sharing that because I know that's quite emotional.

What do you think now? Do you think your dad would be really proud of?

Kwajo: Oh, definitely. I think, yeah, I think he would still. It would never bring him back. But the impact is how. I have no doubt he'd absolutely be laughing. Especially. After, I mean, he absolutely loved like BBC News and ITV News and whatnot. He used to watch it even when we wanted to watch cartoons and stuff. He'd tell us he'd have that on the news. And so he'd be laughing at the fact that I've even been able to go on there once, nevermind all the other times after that. But in regards to the work and what's happened for others, he would be glad because he himself was a key worker, he was a carer, he looked after the elders. For many years, for decades even since he first came over. So that was a job that he very much did of caring for other people and vulnerable people. And then in his last couple of months to receive that after all of that, which is just an absolute disgrace.

Interviewer: Slap in the face.

Kwajo: Slap in the face. Treated less than a human being.

Interviewer: Yeah, that's what I mean. And I think we need to keep using this word humans, don't we? Because we're just absolutely forgetting about that. When we think about how's disrepair until you've really shone a light on this. It's just been, you know, whenever I've heard how I was and talking about, it's just been statistics and it's amazing. And thank you for sharing, like, your own story. And I think what's wonderful is out of the darkness comes the light and you've done so much good work through telling your story and being able to give a platform to other people that don't have a voice as well.

Kwajo: Yeah, that's one reason. Thank you.

So the big question, what do you think we need to do to improve that so much?

Interviewer: Kwajo: But the fundamental thing, there's so much that needs to be done because it's such a broken system, both the public. And private sector, it seems to be sort of toxic from the inside out, rotten up the core.

It's like an infestation.

Kwajo: Yeah, it is. It is an infestation of itself. And the fundamental bottom line is it changes when people start caring. The right people start caring. The people with power, the people that can influence change, really care and prioritize what needs to be a priority. That is, the tenants and tenants needs. It's a public sector. In a hospital, I said time and time again, in a hospital, you wouldn't expect a doctor or nurse to care for anything other than a patient. You go into a school and expect your teachers to prioritize the students and their needs and their education. Why is it any different in housing? With housing providers, housing officers, CEO's, directors, boards, why are they not prioritizing tenants? Why are they caring more about building houses and generating money over the lives of the people that are meant to be housing?

Interviewer: I think now, because you've shone a light, you've got that public support, you've got other people coming forwards with their stories. So it's not an isolated instance. It's shining a light on how large and how horrific this is. And also, I think sometimes potentially, I'm obviously sticking up for them. But you can be desensitized. It can just be statistics to them. So by bringing these human stories, then, do you feel that you have actually swayed people? And people are in the power are looking at this issue more seriously and genuinely now?

Kwajo: Definitely. I think so, because it's completely different to statistics. There's no element of guilt in that, I don't think. Whereas when you watch people living in the conditions that they are, knowing that is your responsibility and you've been allowing that, I would hope anyway, it would start playing on the conscience of those in power. And I think that's what the change is. Whether they genuinely care, though, care enough to want to enforce that change and take on a task so big like fixing housing is another question. But regardless, it's going to have to be fixed. I think the light's been shone brightly on this issue and I don't think it's one that will go away if I have anything to do with it. It definitely won't.

Kwajo: But I don't think with other campaigners and other groups and other activists talking, screaming and shouting about the same problem, I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon until it's dealt with. And dealt with not just from the surface, but from the actual root.

Interviewer: Yeah, definitely. Okay, this is a bit of a long question, so I'm going to read off a little bit.

So congratulations. You've recently announced that you're making a documentary for Channel Four. That's so exciting. It's going to centre around, obviously, you tell me, the standards of repairs and maintenance for both social and private housing. So what made you decide to sort of highlight these issues in the private sector as well?

Kwajo: It's so. I know I can't go into too much detail, but from what I can say is we know that these problems in regards housing works as a system, private and public, they're intertwined and they affect each other. And what we do know, we've known for absolute years and decades that private tenants have been absolutely suffering too. And that's not to say, and I would never say everyone that works in housing and for housing providers, whether it's social housing or private landlords, are evil or the worst, or I wouldn't put them under one because that would be wrong of me to do, because not everyone is exactly the same.

And there are, I've come across in my time, people that genuinely care and work in housing, genuinely care, but unfortunately, things come from the top down and you have to abide by that, otherwise you lose your job. But that's a whole nother conversation. But I can't even remember the point that I was trying to make.

Interviewer: I was talking about sort of how you got into private. But I think once. It's just going to be natural, isn't it? Because once you start to shine a light on the public, all of a sudden people are going to come to you with their issues about the private sector as well. And from a legal point of view, it's really hard because there's stricter rules. So as soon as tenants in the private sector complain to their landlord, they. And they're out straight away. And I remember a couple of years back, Twitter's the only social media that I am on. And I remember like a hashtag going around about sorts of slum landlords and people were posting their pictures of their living conditions privately and compared to how much rent they were paying, particularly where you live, it was just outrageous. Absolutely. People.

Kwajo: Now that this sort of freezes over with COVID people are feeling really vulnerable. And it's like what you were saying where you were in temporary accommodation and then you went, people don't feel like they have a choice at all, as bad as each other. You know, if you want to live in London, you have to pay this crazy rent and you have to borrow loads of people and you have to live in these conditions and it's wrong.

It's blatant. I think exploitation, especially in the private sector, where landlords are doing that and allowing tenants to suffer and disrepair whilst charging them absolute ridiculous amounts, like completely unjustifiable amounts of rent for the horrific conditions that they're being enforced, I think is absolutely criminal. It should be absolutely criminal anyway. But again, there's barely any laws there for tenants to give tenants powers, and that's why they're stuck in this situation. That's why change from the top needs to happen.

Interviewer: I agree what you're saying about change from the top, and I think we've tiptoed around this a little bit, but I've certainly had to think, and I'd love your thoughts on it. A lot of the top are landlords themselves, and a lot of the top don't live or have never lived anywhere close to these living conditions. They aren't from our sort of backgrounds, so they just can't relate whatsoever. Do you think that is part of the problem as to why we are in this position?

Kwajo: Oh, definitely. I think it's a whole culture of if something doesn't affect you, then you don't need to bother it. It's not really your problem, it's not really your priority. And I think that's a culture which needs to change and people need to think about, like I was saying earlier, more about others, not their own selfish interests. And like you said, a lot of the people at the top in government are landlords themselves. So it's not in their interest to make changes that's ultimately gonna affect them. And it's completely true, it will be difficult for them to make the change. But the point that we've got to is it has to happen.

Interviewer: It's not about you as an individual anymore.

Kwajo: No. And there's no ifs or buts here. What we've agreed, and everyone in government has said that I've spoken to so far, these conditions are absolutely horrific. So we've agreed something needs to happen, drastic change needs to happen. So what if it affects you at a few hundred pounds per month? You're making a lot more of that in the position you are, which is supposed to represent the country, and that's why you're receiving and represent the nation and your constituents, and that's why you receive a taxpayer's money on top of everything else that you made, so that the people should be your priority. And what they're saying is they need change in regards to housing. There needs to be legislation, there needs to be change. They need to be prioritized.

And landlords, whether that be in social housing or private housing, need to be held accountable for breaching health and safety standards and putting people's lives at risk.

So the law is there, but it has no legs and that's what it finds. And a lot of the time we've discussed, you know, I will take certain cases to court. Thinking this is an absolute slant on this case is horrendous. There's no way we can lose. And we do lose and the council do have a lot of sympathy. And again, I do think this goes back to just being absolutely out of the loop of reality of how bad the situation is and who really is in power.

And it's a class thing too, because these judges and barristers will be able to afford homes and rent them out or whatnot, have multiple homes and be landlords ultimately. And again, it's that complete disconnect with the people at the top and the class and the people at the bottom having to live in those situations and. But I think it's, well, my ideal situation would be that be completely disregarded and you look at it for what it is and that's human beings. A human being has been made to live like this, whether it's a local authority that you believe you should trust.

Interviewer: And as you said, we're all agreeing that, you know, from the top down, we're agreeing that standard is unacceptable.

Kwajo: Yeah. Not one person in my time has sat in front of me and tried to justify any of the living conditions that I've shown, or the fact that people are being forced to live like this. Not one. So why aren't things changing straight away? Where's the reaction? Exactly.

Interviewer: Yeah. So we need the action really, don't we? Another big massive topic at the moment is the cost of the living crisis. So you've recently appeared on a panel, you just everywhere love it at Glastonbury. So tell me a little bit about that then.

Kwajo: Yeah. So it was defined the cost of living crisis and I was on with a few of them, few other members too, to discuss, well, our work as individuals, but also what needs to be done and what more needs to be done to defy the cost of living.

Interviewer: Because I'm sure that this crisis straight away I'm thinking this is going to affect our tenants the most.

Kwajo: Definitely, definitely. I mean, everyone needs housing is something fundamentally that affects everyone in this country, unless you are homeless in a rough sleeper, but even in that sense it does affect you because you haven't got something that you deserve.

Interviewer: So we're talking about absolute basics here. We're not talking about luxury, we're just talking about basics.

Kwajo: And it will affect tenants the most. And it's not just tenants in social housing, it's private housing too. We're going to see landlords increase their prices and landlords increasing their prices, whilst also letting their tenants live in squalor. But also social housing. Tenants are going to be. There's tenants out there with disrepair that they're so desperate and will throw absolutely all of their money, even if they are on benefits or whatnot, to try and get themselves out of that situation, as well as trying to.

They're finding it difficult to choose between paying their electric, paying their landlord rent or feeding their kids, ultimately, and in a lot of cases, they're having to prioritize paying their rent so they're not evicted to a landlord, which isn't fixing housing conditions that they're complaining about, whilst not being able to feed themselves and struggling to pay their gas and electric. It's just completely immoral, I think. And it will be tenants that suffer. Suffer the most. Yeah. Tenants living with disrepair.

Interviewer: Yeah. So our hope really is that if at the very least, they can just get the home repaired. And so, you know, I think what we. The message we need to get out here is we're not saying that we want the, you know, anyone to live in absolute luxury, we're just saying just a reasonable, decent living standard, just somewhere that's livable. That is the absolute bare basics fit for human habitation, for humans to live in, and they're just not. They're falling way below that standards. Turning now, really, to the role of solicitors, I'm going to challenge you a little bit. And solicitors, we've talked a lot today, and I know it's not a black and white issue, it's like multifaceted. One of your tweets was sort of about the role of solicitors and housing claims.

So, because you are advocating, and you do come across solicitors, good and bad, you tell me from your point of view, what should we be doing and what should we not be doing in an ideal world?

Interviewer: Well, I've. I have come across a lot of solicitors and I've spoken to tenants that have come across a lot of solicitors, and the ones that I do work with are really good. And always when I come across case, I always ask, do you have a solicitor? Do you have legal help? And if not, I've helped tenants get that legal help. I've put them in contact with the right solicitors that I know are reputable and I've worked with in the past. But unfortunately, you do have other solicitors.

Out there, which I agree with. We've talked about it, that prioritize money.

Money and finances over what it is that they should be delivering. And again, it's a service and they are part of the problem. And I'm not saying again, because I wouldn't put everyone under the same umbrella. It's not all because you really do have good solicitors and housing solicitors that are there because they genuinely care and know exactly what is going on in regards to tenants living in disrepair and know it's not fair and want to help tenants. But then you've got, like, everything you've got situation, and that's the saddest part. People still try to make money out of a bad situation and prioritize doing that as opposed to what it is they should be doing. You have got solicitors out there. We'd be lying if we said that there isn't out there doing that.

And again, exploiting tenants and their situations, their vulnerable situation. And I think it's completely bad. So I have had loads of them solicitors without even really introducing me or disguising it as something.

Interviewer: Trying to jump on.

Kwajo: Yeah, trying to jump on and say, oh, yeah, come to us and give us your tenants or let's work together and we can make money out of this. And it's like, no, because I never went. I never went.

Interviewer: That's not your goal. But I think the missing the point of that's not the tenants goal either. There's a big body of lawyers that actually want to change the law. And we've got to think, you know, me personally, not just housing, because I do a lot of other things, I do want the public to learn to trust lawyers again. And I am doing sort of my own campaign that some lawyers can be trusted. Some lawyers sort of have people's best intentions at heart. And we do have laws in place where lawyers have lobbied to get those laws. Where we agree is the laws are there, they are just not enough. They're just not enough.

And I do, honestly, I'd love the day where I have to shut the housing department because landlords are actually doing the repairs, because I can almost pick another area of law to go into. But unfortunately, the cases are there because no one's doing anything about it. What we see again, which is unfortunate, is sometimes as soon as a lawyer gets involved or you get involved, all.

Kwajo: It is, it is. And for tenants suffering with disrepair, I know it was with me. I didn't really know of any campaigners. I kind of fell into this role and when I started, didn't really know of any housing groups or campaigners that could help me. But what I did know is there was solicitors out there. They were essentially my only hope at the time. Like, I didn't know where else to go and I didn't think I'd get anything moving otherwise. So they were for a lot of, and are for a lot of tenants the only person or group of people in their corner to back them up when it comes to defending themselves against negligent housing providers.

And housing providers are massive organizations with influence, power and intimidation, and they won't mind using that in order to suppress or manipulate what it is that tenants want and need. So they tend to go to solicitors, I know that I do, to have them in their corner fighting their case for them. But like we said, there are.

Interviewer: It can be a minefield itself, like anything. There's good players and there's bad players in the field, and it's just really differentiating who it is and maybe sometimes calling them out as well. And I think as a owner of a law firm, there's many times where I've got to hold myself to account and say, is this the right person to sue? Is this the right avenue? Are we giving back to the clients? What is our main source of objective here? Can we listen? Can we learn? And that's why it's great to have you on here, to sort of guide us and give us advice as to what the real deal is, what we can do to help and sort of share our information as well about the statistics that we have.

Because sometimes, as we discussed, you might have the feeling that this is, you know, a rogue landlord, or there's different cases and we can turn around and go, yeah, we've actually got 500 cases with them and this is what they're up to. And I think, you know, whoever the players are, we should all come together, definitely.

Kwajo: And I think that's what tenants need is, even if it is solicitors doing that, and also putting pressure on the likes of the government as professionals and saying, there's an issue here, we're dealing with it. We now need you to do your part because it is such a huge problem, as well as the likes of me, other campaigners, other groups and tenants screaming and shouting about it because collectively.

Interviewer: Got a bigger voice from all different levels. And we can hit. We can come at it from all different angles as well. So that's. That's why I am happy that you're here.

Kwajo: Yeah, no, thank you. And I'm glad to be here because, like I said, it's tenants as well as with disrepair, need that legal support in terms of putting pressure on the people at the top, meaning government, and saying, listen here, we're professionals. We're dealing on a day to day case with tenants suffer with disrepair. There is a problem here. You need to do something. We're telling you need to do something. And it's that gives tenants that bit more power. Even though laws and regulations don't really have a leg to stand on at the moment. It's about telling the government and the likes of the government that this needs to change. Tenants need more powers because this is completely immoral, unacceptable and criminal. Ultimately, what is being allowed to happen?

Interviewer: And just in my sort of takeaway, just from this conversation today, I'm getting it that actually lawyers are agreeing with you, MP's are agreeing with you, people who work in the housing are agreeing with you. So we're all agreed. When is this, you know, when is this change going to come? So I'd say to you, for other people that are in a similar situation and feel inspired to use their voice for a greater cause, like, what advice would you give them?

Just go with it and throw your absolute all at it, I'd say, because ultimately we have morals. We know the difference between right and wrong. It doesn't necessarily have to be housing like I did. It could be absolutely something they're passionate about. Yeah, we know the difference between right or wrong. And if you know you're fighting on the side and you know that change needs to come, and you know that people are suffering because the change isn't there yet. You might be that individual that creates that change. And it seems like a massive task. And the term campaign or activist, I didn't plan on getting that title. I kind of fell into it and was labeled it. I just wanted.

Kwajo: I knew I wanted to prove a point, and it starts with that. Wanted to prove a point in showing that something's happening and it's completely wrong and shouldn't be happening. And it's from there that you take day by day and things begin to change. And it's difficult, I won't lie, but it's not as hard in that sense of going out there day in, day out and talking about an issue and getting changed. And the benefit you will get from it is seeing the results there. And I just encourage absolutely anyone, because that's what we need more of.

I bet you have.

Kwajo: Yeah, I hope so. I really do. Not just in house, but beyond young people, old people, you name it, to make it known that their voice matters, because it does. And at the end of the day, everyone's human being and deserves, and I say time and time again, to be treated like one.

Yes. And we should be theme of this talk, isn't it? Well, what a fantastic talk I've had with you today. What a fantastic year that you've had. We all want to know what's next.

Kwajo: Oh, God, I honestly don't know. I've just finished uni, so I've graduated. I got my grades yesterday. Yeah.

Stop it. What did you get? What did you do?

Kwajo: So it was business, entrepreneurship and innovation.

So were you literally living and breathing?

Kwajo: Yeah. I know. It's crazy because in my final year, I had to talk about social issues and I talked about thousand and one because I was doing it at the time. I got two, one, which I'm happy.

That is amazing. Congratulations.

Kwajo: Thank you. I mean, my focus was completely not on my degree for the last year, so I'm glad I managed to get away without having to go.

You should be so proud. That's amazing.

Kwajo: I'm glad I finished, but from this point, I'm going to continue with my housing, continue advocating on behalf of people, continue trying to get change from government. Ultimately, real change passed that will benefit people for generations to come. And then from there, I don't know, to be honest, I haven't really planned.

Well, we had a little chat today because I gave you a tour of our offices and we've got all. We've got our bouncy boardroom and we've got all our art up. So tell me a little bit about the hidden artists in you.

Kwajo: Yeah. So I. As well as campaigning, my one passion is art. So painting. I taught myself how to paint. A lot of people know, but I don't. I took a huge pause for about two years, especially since I've been doing this, I just haven't had the chance to do it, getting back into it. And ultimately that's what I want to do with my art. That's what I enjoy doing. That's what I can sit down doing it 13 hours a day, not eat, not even care, and just sit in, sit and do that. And that's what I want to do when I get to where it is that I want to with in terms of campaigning and getting changed with housing. So that is the goal. But who knows, it might take another diversion.